Hi, My name is Neil and I am from Canada. I am trying to find out about my family. My grandfather's name is James Arthur BEBBINGTON. He was born on Sepember 27,1902 in Atcham district Salop (Shropshire?). His parents names are William and Sarah (born JOHNSON). My grandfather had a sister named Kathleen who was married to Jim ARKENSTALL and lived in Market Drayton. My grandfather died on April 27,1981 in British Columbia, Canada. He was the only BEBBINGTON who had immigrated to Canada.
Any information about either family would be great. I would love to find out if I have living relatives there too.
Hi Michael
Thank you so much for the reply. My grandfather, James Arthur Bebbington, was married to my grandmother, Mona Victora Williams, on Dec 6,1933 in Vancouver, British Columbia Canada . I asked my mother if she was sure on the spelling of uncle Jim's and auntie Kathleen's last name. She said it may have been spelt "Akinstell or Akenstell". I have some letters that they sent to my mom in the late 60's and both were still alive then. The envelopes have their address on them but not their last name. They lived on St. Michaels Way, Childs Ercall, Market Drayton. My grandfather was baptized Stapleton Church November 16 th 1902. It is the original baptism certificate and is hard to read, so the spelling of the church maybe wrong.
Hi Neil
Is this James, going by his middle name Arthur, on the 1911 census?
He was born in Stapleton (in Atcham registration district) around the right time, and the schedule shows his parents were William and Sarah and he had a sister named Kathleen.
Steve
Hi again
It appears that Kathleen's full name was Kathleen Ellen Bebbington, birth registered March quarter 1908 at Wem (this registration district includes Lee Brockhurst where Kathleen was born according to the 1911 census above).
There is a death registration for a Kathleen Ellen Arkinstall, date of birth 5 Feb 1908, in North Shropshire registration district, December 1973.
The marriage of a Kathleen E Bebbington to a Thomas W Ellsmoor was registered at Newport, Shropshire March quarter 1931.
The marriage of a Kathleen E Ellsmoor to a James W Arkinstall is then registered at Whitchurch, Shropshire March quarter 1954.
Steve
At nearly.org
Wow, this is amazing what you found. We did not know that Kathleen was married twice. I wonder what happened happened to her 1st husband. I wonder if William Bebbington, grandfathers dad, had any brothers or sisters. Aunt Kathleen always talked about an uncle William. Is there a way to find out if I have any living Bebbington, Johnson, or Arkenstall relatives still in Shropshire? Thank you so much for what you have found so far. I have one more question on my dad's side. His dad was Richard Henry Shroeder, but changed his name to Storer when he and his wife, Helen Kelly came to Canada. Although all his brothers and sisters were born in England,we were always told he was born in China.. His marriage certificate and death registry says he was born in England. My uncle and his sons death registry says his father was born in China. I am not sure on how to go about confirming if he was born in England or China.
Hi Neil
I've been trying to post a reply but my original message apparently triggered the spam filter! Most unhelpful. I'll try splitting the message and posting it in smaller chunks to see if that helps. Here goes with part 1 ...
I too wonder what happened to Kathleen's first husband! I've not carried out a full search but what searches I've done to discover his fate after his marriage have come to nought. I believe he was the Thomas William Ellsmoor whose birth was registered in the December quarter of 1900 at Thingoe registration district (Suffolk, England). A fair way from Shropshire, but he turns up on the 1911 census (under his middle name of William) living at Forton Hall near Newport, Shropshire (but actually just over the county border in Staffordshire - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forton_Hall) with his unmarried uncle John Charles Ellsmoor (25, a farmer born Cheswardine, Shropshire), his widowed mother Lucy Ellsmoor (42, born Acton, Cheshire), and his sister Patience Ellsmoor (13, born Rushbrook, Suffolk). Thomas / William, age 10, was also born at Rushbrook, which falls within Thingoe registration district. Evidently he remained in (or returned to) the Newport area, hence his marriage to Kathleen in the Newport registration district several years later. But then what? Incidentally, his grandmother was Annie Arkinstall, if this online family tree is accurate: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~burfordwoodley/8092.htm
I haven't found any Ellsmoor birth registrations with the mother's maiden name Bebbington, suggesting either that Thomas / William and Kathleen had no children - or that they had children somewhere other than England and Wales. I've not spotted them in passenger lists leaving the UK.
Next we have Kathleen marrying Jim Arkinstall. Was he a 'toy boy', the James William Arkinstall born 8 Oct 1918 whose death was registered (like Kathleen's) in the North Shropshire registration district, in February 1993 (birth registered at Newport, Shropshire, December quarter 1918)? There was another James William Arkinstall, birth registered December quarter 1906 at Stoke on Trent, but he was likely the James W Arkinstall whose death was registered in the same district in the March quarter of 1957. I can see no Arkinstall children births with mother's maiden name Bebbington registered after (or for that matter before) the marriage, but Kathleen was by that time about 46.
Steve
Hi again Neil
Splitting the message into two seems to have beaten the dreaded spam filter. Here's part 2:
So to your great grandfather William Bebbington. He certainly had siblings. Check him out on the 1891 census aged 20, with his family: http://sharing.ancestry.com/3619748?h=71c055&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url This census says he and his siblings were born in Wem rather than Edstastson (as stated on the 1911 census), but I think Edstaston was a chapelry within the parish of Wem. [Edit: See next post for 1891 census link - I accidentally poted a link to the 1871 census here!]
Chances are that there will be other living descendants of this Bebbington family. Joining one of the online family tree sites such as Ancestry, Geni, MyHeritage or Genes Reunited and adding details of your own family tree (or just searching the trees put online by others) might lead to contact with cousins.
To get further with Richard Henry Shroeder / Storer a bit more info would be helpful. Any idea of when he was born? (When did he die and how old was he then?) Also, what were the names of his brothers and sisters? Any clues as to when - and where (more specifically than England) - they were born? A fuller picture of the whole family often helps to track down the person we are interested in.
Steve
Drat - I accidentally posted a link to William Bebbington in the 1871 census when he was 3 months old instead of the 1891 census when he was 20 and had lots more siblings! Let's try that again: http://sharing.ancestry.co.uk/3619743?h=f83bad
Steve
Thanks again for all you are doing for me. This is great stuff. I am on myheritage.com. My site is storer/bebbington (Jensen). My other grandfather was born Richard Henry Schroeder. He was born on September 16th,1897 in London England (or China, which is was we were always told). He died on April 9 1965 in Ontario Canada. He was married to Helen Kelly, .who was born in London on February 1 1895. She died April 14 1983 in Vancouver, BC Canada. Richards parents were Paul Henry Schroeder born in Germany on November 5, 1873 and Emma Mary Schroeder born Johnson on September 13, 1869 in London.
Hi Neil
I have a few more links for you but I'm having trouble posting due to the anti-spam filter on this forum! I'll try splitting the post into chunks.
First, the records of the Royal Aero Club of Great Britain show Richard born 16 Sep 1896 in London:
The Aero Club records include a photograph of Richard! (Bottom right of the page linked to below.)
The same date and place of birth were given by Richard when he signed up for the Canadian Over-seas Expeditionary Force in 1915. Links to the front and back of his attestation paper can be found on this page:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=217214
BUT - I can't see an English birth registration for Richard.
Richard's father Paul Henry Schroeder certainly had connections with China as there are passenger lists at Ancestry showing him arriving at Vancouver / Victoria on 5 Jan 1921 from Hong Kong / Shanghai. His wife is shown as Connie Mary Schroeder, age 40, born England and with them were Alice Eleanor Schroeder (16, born England), Paul Henry Schroeder jr (14, born England) and George [middle name ?] Schroeder (7, born Canada). Paul Henry jr was certainly born in LOndon, his birth registered at Edmonton registration district in the March quarter of 1907.
An Alice Schroeder of the right age turns up on the 1911 census of England & Wales with two older siblings, Edward and Amy, with their grandmother Emma Mary Harrison in Highbury, London; all 3 of the Schroeders are shown as born in Ilford:
Again though, I'm not seeing birth registrations which I could attribute to these children. Not under Storer either. Perhaps the family used another surname at the end of the 1890s and beginning of the next decade prior to the birth of Paul Henry junior??
But before I look further - do the names I have found tie in with what you know? Or have I found a different Schroeder family?
Steve
Hi Paul
One final link for you this evening, the 1921 census of Canada. R H Schroeder (24, born England, father born Hamburg, mother born England) with wife H M Schroeder (24, born England as were both parents). Roomers in the Sinclair household, at the bottom of the page linked to below:
The above shows Richard immigrating 1910. There is a passenger list for the Empress of Ireland, arriving Quebec October 1910, showing Emmie Schroder (34) with children Richard (13) and Paul (3). There's an Emmie Schroder (26, born London) with husband Paul (general export merchant, 30, born Hamburg) and daughter Amy (2, born London), but no Richard on the 1901 census living in East Ham, Essex, England.
Oh, the marriage of Paul Schroder and Emmie Mary Harrison (not Johnson) was registered at Pancras in London, June quarter 1894.
That's it for now!
Steve
Thanks again Atcherley.org.uk
Is your name Steve? Who is Paul? My name is Neil. The passenger list looks very interesting. How can I see these lists?
Sorry Neil - it was very late at night for me when posting that last message so I ended up giving you your ancestor's name! (Dread to think what I'm going to be like at work today.....)
1910 passenger list showing arrival of Emmie, Richard and Paul jr:
Will have to do the other list in another post - the spam filter won't let me post more than one link to the same domain name in a single post.
Steve
1921 passenger list showing Paul Henry sr and junior plus "Connie Mary" (suspect this was actually Emmie Mary), Alice Eleanor and George.
Paul senior turns up on other lists. I think you would find an Ancestry subscription very helpful for further research!
Steve
Hi Neil
If the people I have found look like your family I believe I now have Richard Schroeder on the 1901 census, age 3, with his Harrison grandparents plus uncles and aunts. Birthplace given as London. If this is your ancestor then with all the other records saying England and London I rather think that is where he was born.
UPDATE: Based on Richard's age given as 3 on the 1901 census I've had another look at the birth registrations and I believe his birth was registered in the December quarter of 1897 at Pancras, London under the name Richard Paul H Schroder. H no doubt = Henry. Paul after his father but this later dropped leaving him as Richard Henry. The birth date you gave of 16 Sep 1897 fits nicely - a couple of weeks delay in registering the birth would put the registration into the last quarter of the year. For whatever reason it seems Richard gave his year of birth as 1896 to both the Royal Aero Club and the Canadian military authorities. Why he decided in later life to give his place of birth as China rather than London is a matter for speculation.
Steve
Hi Steven
How are you today? I found something out today about my grandfather, Arthur Bebbington. My mom said that he was very proud of being a member of the Yeomanry( I think it was like a calvary). I remember him saying something about being in the calvary during WW1 in England. My cousin sent me some more information about my grandfather Storer (Schroeder). Once I go through is all I will post it on here.
Thanks
Neil
Hi Neil
I am fine thanks. I'd really appreciate some feedback on the records I found relating the Schroeder family - at the moment I have no idea whether the hours I put in to finding and communicating them have actually been of any help to you!
Steve
Hi Steve
I really appreciate all your hard work It has put me in the right directions on many of my searches. Most of the information you supplied is right on. Richard Henry Schroeder (Storer) lied about most of his documents for the airforce and military about his age. His actual birthdate was actually September 16, 1897. His name when he married Helen Mary Kelly on February 8, 1919 was still Schroeder, However, they moved quickly back to Canada and changed his name to Storer. We always thought it was because he had a German name and he would be discriminated against because of the war, A few weeks ago I got a message from a girl in New Zealand. She sent me a bunch of documentation and a story of her great uncle . On his birth certificate it gave the fathers name a Richard Henry Schroeder. The mother contacted the Canadian government to find Richard to help the cost of bringing up this child. However, because he changed his name to storer they never could find him and the government ended up paying for the cost of the upbringing of the child. Although I don't think anyone one in his family or his wife new of this child. In sometime around 1934 or so, I think grandma found out and that is why she kicked him out. Quit a saga.. More to come....
Facts, that which we know for sure:
1. Helen Mary Kelly married Richard Henry Schroeder in London on Feb. 8, 1919
2. Helen Mary Kelly was born on Feb. 1, 1895; brother Sidney James Kelly July 30, 1892
3. Elizabeth (Gladys) Webb married James Patrick Kelly; James Patrick Kelly died when Grandma was 18 months old (but I haven’t been able to verify with his death record yet), so we can calculate about October 1896? Still checking on that….
4. Elizabeth Kelly, in the UK Census 1911 was 49 years old (so we assume born in 1862; in Canterbury, Kent) and Helen Mary Kelly, 16 years old (born in 1895).
5. Death record for Elizabeth Kelly: July 2, 1941 in Vancouver, BC. at the age of 79. That works with the 1862 year of birth calculations.
6. INCONSISTENCY: on Grandma’s birth certificate is says that her mother Elisabeth was 22 years old in 1895…year of birth 1872-3; if we know she was 49 in 1911, that means year of birth was 1862.
Essex Census Transcript (1901)
Printed on Tuesday, 21 January 2014
Address:
45 Carlton Road
Parish:
East Ham
Registration District:
East Ham, Essex
Surname
Forename
Age
Relation
Occupation
Birth Place
Image Reference
Schroeder
Paul
30
Head
General Export Merchant
Hamburg, Germany
RG13/1599/~F14
Schroeder
Emma
26
Wife
--, London
RG13/1599/~F14
Schroeder
Amy
2
Daughter
--, London
RG13/1599/~F14
1. UK CENSUS 1901: We see that Paul Henry Schroeder, his wife Emma (Harrison) Schroeder, and daughter Amy Beatrice lived in London in April 1901. QUESTION: Where were all the other children?
2. We see that the father was from Hamburg, Germany which coincides with what we know about the family. Amy was born in 1898 (birth record found ), so the age of 2 is correct.
3. If Paul Henry was 30 years old at the time of the census, then his birth is around 1871.
4. Inconsistency: from Ocean View Burial Park, Paul Henry Storer died Nov. 20, 1942; born Nov. 4, 1873….not that big a difference, but a difference it is.
5. Ocean View Burial Park: Emma Mary Storer died Aug. 25, 1951; born Sept. 13, 1869 London.
6. Birth record found: Alice Eleanor Schroeder, September 14, 1904; entry 322, book 43.
7. Alice “Peachie” Schroeder Flack passed away March 17, 2004, 6 months before her 100th birthday. Coincides with UK birth record.
THINGS MY MOTHER HAS TOLD ME OVER THE YEARS…..rumors;
1. Paul Henry (Heinrich) Von Schroeder (Schröder) : the original name with “von” and spelled with ö (umlaut).
2. He was a fur importer, merchant marine; traveled , imported from Kowloon, Hong Kong, Shanghai.
3. He fell in love with Emma Harrison, a dancer, auburn hair, singer and piano player in the night life of the London docks.
4. Some of the children were born on China; some went to private British boarding school (Catholic?) in Shanghai/Hong Kong….(to be researched, please)
5. RH lied about his age to enlist in 1915 in the WWI. He probably did not present a birth certificate, nor can I find a record of his birth in London registers.
6. Uncle Sid Kelly did marry; he went to work for the telephone company in Austraila? He came to Vancouver …. He had been gassed during the war, in pain all his life, was unhappy in Vancouver, started drinking….
7. Paul Henry Schroeder had a wrought iron factory in México, had to escape to Vancouver because of the Revolution in 1910: entry records need to be checked to find out exactly when they arrived in Vancouver. I have checked the telephone directories (see below). More research needs to be done.
8. There was another daughter, a sister of RH who died??? No idea on this rumor… Only sisters we know are Amy and Alice.
I have never heard of “Connie”. I don’t think that is a correct link.
I am attaching the newspaper clippings for RH. He was married as Schroeder, had the illegitimate child as Schroeder, and was awarded the Belgium Croix de Guerre as Schroeder.
What we know now is that he probably changed his name to Storer so as NOT to be found by the family of the illegitimate child. The telephone directory listings show “Storers”….I am assuming RH got his parents to change their name . Did they know about the son born in England? Did Grandma know? I don’t think so. She got married when the baby was 5 weeks old…would she have married RH knowing that there was a 5 week old baby? Did RH tell his parents?? How did he get them to change their last name? But my mother told me that she called her grandfather “Grandfather Schroeder”…… And the grandmother was Emma NOT Connie. So there you have it! There is a lot more but I am still trying to confirm things. But I seems the more and more I research in the family tree sites the more money they keep wanting....lol..so I better pace myself. Again I thank you for all you have done. My cousin, who lives in Spain has done a lot too.
Steve
Have you been able to see the family tree so far on myheritage.com yet?
Hi Neil
Thanks for all that, and I have managed to find your tree at MyHeritage too. A few bits and pieces:
1) Personally, I wouldn't write off the passenger list showing "Connie". Every time a record is transcribed there is an opportunity for a transcription error and this passenger list was typed out, most likely from a source or sources which was or were handwritten. Emma seems to have been known as Emmie in most of the records I've seen showing her in adult life, and I think a badly-written Emmie could easily have been interpreted as Connie by the typist. The names, ages and birthplaces of the children with Connie/Emmie on the list fit and Connie/Emmie's middle name is given as Mary. On the balance of probabilities I think the record relates to your family.
2) The rumour about Emma / Emmie Harrison being a singer would seem to be true. She is with her family on the 1891 census where her occupation is shown as "operatic singer"!
3) Another Ancestry link for this one, so I need to post it separately! .....
.... 3) You asked where all the Schroeder's other children were on the 1901 census, but I think at that point they only had two children, Richard Henry and Amy Beatrice. As I mentioned in my post above (reply #17) I believe I have found Richard staying with his Harrison grandparents, aunts and uncles in 1901. Here is a link:
4) You mentioned that you couldn't find a birth for Richard Henry Schroeder. Again from reply #17 above, I think I have found it: Richard Paul H Schroder, birth registered in the December quarter of 1897 at Pancras (volume 1d, page 45). You may wish to order a copy from the GRO, it will give the date and place of birth and the parents' names which would confirm whether or not the record relates. Possibly a bit of a gamble but I suspect it would pay off!
5) Your MyHeritage tree shows no parents for Emma/Emmie Mary Harrison. Having found her on the 1891 census (see above) it looks like her parents were Charles Harrison (a print compositor, born abt 1851) and Emma Mary (born abt 1853). The 1891 census doesn't give birth places for either party unfortunately. However, after a long search this evening I have finally found the family in 1881 - a bit of a struggle as everyone bar Charles Harrison senior was recorded under just the initials of their first names, also Charles' age on this census indicates a rather earlier birth year of abt 1845 (at Hoxton, Middlesex). His wife 'E' was 29 so born abt 1852, at Greenwich, Kent. The initials, ages and birth places of the children tie in with the those shown on the 1891 census (the younger Emma was born at Deptford, Kent). I'll need a new post to give you the link to that census image ...
5) (continued) Here's the link to the 1881 census showing the Harrison family. As you will see, Charles was a print compositor then too.
I think that's about all I can contribute at this point. It's quite a family history you have, and tracking down the details hasn't been made easier by the Schroeders never turning up as a whole family unit on any one record that I have seen! It looks like the Harrisons did quite a bit of child minding for the Schroeders, and that the Schroeders did not travel to Canada all together but separately and at different times.
Steve
Hi Steve
Can you tell me where I can get a copy of Richard Schroeder's birth registry you spoke about in reply#17?
Hi Neil
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Click on the "Register as an individual" link on the above page. Once you have registered, you will be taken to the first page of the certificate ordering process. Select the Birth Certificate (England & Wales) radio button, and the Yes radio button in answer to the question "Is the GRO Index Reference Number known?" then enter 1897 in the "Year in which the event was registered" box. Click on Submit.
On the next page, enter the surname and forenames (Schroder and Richard Paul H in this case), select the Oct, Nov, Dec quarter from the drop-down list, and then enter the district name (Pancras) the volume number (1d) and the page number (45). Choose whether you want the standard or priority delivery service, change the default entry of 1 if you want more than one copy of the certificate, and type in a reference for the order (this can be anything you like). Click on Submit.
Check your personal details on the next page (which should be populated using the details you gave when registering) and click Submit.
The next page will show details of the certificate you are ordering (a chance to make amendments if necessary - by clicking the Edit button). You can add an order reference number if you wish but this is entirely optional. Click the Checkout button. On the next page, click on Proceed with payment (the GRO like to give you plenty of chances to change your mind!).
You are then transferred to the Worldpay service to pay for the certificate - I will leave that bit to you!
Steve
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Hello Neil
Whilst your family may have used the spelling ARKENSTALL the more usual spelling in this area is ARKINSTALL so you might like to bear that in mind when doing any name searches.
I am curious why I can't find any trace of the marriage between Kathleen BEBBINGTON and Jim (James?) ARK(E/I)NSTALL. When and where did it take place?
Did your grandfather marry in England or Canada?
Mike