Charles Oscar ROBBINS 1847 , not born in Shifnall

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RitaB
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Afternoon everyone,smiley

A distant cousin has contacted me re her great grandfather. He was born 4 Apr 1847 in Shifnall and according to his death certicate his parents were Richard and Elizabeth.The only record I can find is the 1870 USA Census, I cannot find a birth or any immigration or travel. Has anyone any suggestions

Thanks

RitaB

>

RitaB
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Sorry everyone, this is incorrect information, she has no idea where Charles was born. It is her other Great Grandfather that was born in Shifnall, Joseph Harley abt 1821. He was living in Kingswinford, Staffordshire in 1851 and the family emigrated to USA in 1867. They are having a family reunion next month and she  is desperate to find birth details to add to her posters.

Martyn Freeth
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To clarify the last posting, is it still C O R that you are trying to chase? Anything needed in Salop on Joseph Harley?

For C O R perhaps you can spell out what you know and from what sources. Do US death certificates give parents/ names? What age at death and where? What does the 1870 US Census give?

You can search for registration of birth via www.freebmd.org.uk.

I cannot see a matching Charles Oscar between 1840 and 1850 both inc. a Charles Oakley ROBINS was born in West Brom District. Try more permutations yourself, and you can use the "phonetic" option fior surnames. If his second name was omitted there will be real difficulty in narrowing the field.

Have you tried English 1851 Census via Ancestry? Cannot help at home.

RitaB
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Thanks Martyn,

She is looking for anything on  either of her Gt Grandfathers.

The 1851 and 1861 census for Joseph Harley states he was born in Shifnal, I have sent for one of his childrens BC so hopefully will get his wife's maiden name.

I wouldn't have posted about C O R if I had known that he wasn't born in Shropshire. I have checked Ancestry and Findmypast and cannot find any record  under C O R

Martyn Freeth
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Fine Rita. As regards JH, Shifnal baps after 1812 are not, I seem to recall, in IGI. Search needed in fiches or transcript at Shropshire Archives. I MIGHT try for this for you later this week.

There is a JH bap in 1823 at Much Wenlock.

For marriages of a JH in Shropshire (only) between 1838 and 1862 there are two possibilities. Of course, "your" JH may have married twice but othewise one marriage each might apply to each JH, assuming that the 1823 bap does not refer to "yours", bap in, say, home parish.

FreeBMD lists two or marriages on same page; but if you can spell out some details of 1861 Census (place, wife, children, ages, wife's place of birth) we might narrow the field - so that you could apply for that certificate and get respective father's names.

RitaB
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Again, thanks Martyn. I think he married in the Kingwinsford area. I have found 3 possible marriages registered in Stourbridge.in 1842. His wife was called Sarah she was born in Kingwinsford abt 1826. Hopefully the BC I have ordered will give me some clues.

Martyn Freeth
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Rita, as regards Charles Oscar Robbins, have you tried an exact words Google search against his names? Apart from this thread there seems to be one born in 1861 in Indiana, USA. Relevant?

For Joseph Harley the wife seems to be Sarah Scriven. As I have quite a bit of ancestry in Kingswinford I can see that those registers are in IGI for the relevant period, so that Sarah may be one of two bap or born in parishes next door - a "real" entry for Sedgeley and a private one for Brierley Hill. In both cases the father was Thomas Scriven. So if you want to pursue this line you will need the JH / SS marriage certificate, not least for Sarah's father's occupation. (I have all Kingswinford registers as printed by BMSGH).

RitaB
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Martyn, Sorry but could you explain a "real" entry and a private one with regard to Sarah Scriven.

As far as searching for Charles Oscar Robbins I have tried everything. As I said the first sight I had of him was when he was living with the Harley family in Pennsylvania said he was from England he died in 1919. I'll wait for the BC before ordering a MC.

Thank your for your time and effort    in 1870, said he was England. He died sHhe he h

Martyn Freeth
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Sure, Rita. A "real" entry in the IGI is one produced by the Mormon teams who transcribed their films of the original registers, with control checks. They are usually indexed wholly in upper case, and the footnote on the page confirms this. Private entries are submitted by amateur researchers and are or were entered without any checks. These are generally in lower case. Many have quite simple errors such as in day of the month or in the year. Others are sheer guesswork, and others more merely flag up someone's interest in an event that ought to have taken place around the date - somewhere. The footnote on the page refers to a member of the LDS Church.

Further browsing suggests that Scrivens were in Kingswinford from at least 1715. Might earlier have moved in from Shropshire.

RitaB
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Now I know, I had noticed but never knew there was any significance, again Martyn, I am indebted to you

MarkCDodd
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Charles Oscar Robbins is only ever referred to as Charles Robbins in the American Census.

He first appears in the 1870 census and is 23 years of age and born in England which fits in with the 1847 birth.

Both the the 1900 and 1910 census agree with this age and England as place of birth.

 

RitaB
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Thank you Mark, I have a copy of his death certificate and even on that he is referred to as Charles, no mention of Oscar. I don't know where the family got the name from. I have asked and they haven't an answer only that it is a family name, a son has it for a middle name.

Martyn Freeth
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Rita, I could not today see the bap of Joseph Harley in Shifnal between 1.1.1817 and 31.12.1826, but some writingwas awkward. Only Harley bap was 15.10.1826, Richard s of John and Ellen Harley, Shiffnal, soldier. A "parent" of IGI search does not throw up other issue, but then Shifnall not covered after 1812. A soldier might have moved around a bit.

That other Joseph (bap 15.9.1823 at Much Wenlock, s of Richard and Anne Harley, publican) can be seen with parents and a younger brother Jeremiah in Wednesfield (near Wolverhampton), Staffs in 1851 Census, he then a "pensioner" [ query Army service ] aged 28, born at Wenlock. Richard, by the way was then a miner, aged 60, born in Ludlow and wife is now called Jane, aged 58, born in "Shilton" [ possibly Shelton ] Staffs.

I decided to look at your Joseph also in 1851 Census. He then at Common Side, Pensnett, Kingswinford [ but near Brierley Hill ] , a miner aged 30, born in Shifnal.

If you have not yet seen this Census entry I recommend that you do. Joseph has indeed a wife Sarah, but the second child listed, a Joseph, was bap 29.1.1843 at Brierley Hill, s of Joseph and Mary Ann, per IGI. The youngest, Benjamin was bap 19.5.1850 at Kingswinford, s of Joseph and Sarah

Further, two other children in the household are Pagetts, listed as daughters [ which has to mean of Sarah ] and indeed, Rebecca d of Joseph and Sarah Pagett bap 17.10.1841 at Kingswinford, and Joanna 29.10.1843, ditto.

Per IGI, joseph Pagett = Sarah TENCE Sep q 1841 in Wolverhampton District, but note in IGI Joseph Pagett = Sarah TENCH 23.8.1843 at St Thomas', Dudley [ which then was in Worcs as an island surrounded by Staffs and some detached Shropshire ].

Beyond all this things do not yet gel for me. And I cannot see in FreeBMD a marriage of Joseph Harley and a Sarah Pagett. How Scriven might fit into all this I do not yet see, and that marriage mentioned earlier above might not now thethe right one.

Which child of Joseph is the ancestor of your cousin? Joseph? In that case, Sarah seems to have been stepmother. His birth cert is cert noe needed!

By the way in FreeBMD, allow variant spelling of Paget/t.

Beyond all this things do not yet slot together

RitaB
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Evening Martyn, The child in question is Elizabeth Harley, according to her DC she was born 25 Dec 1853 she died 23 Nov 1918. She married Charles (Oscar) Robbins in Pennsylvania. I have ordered Benjamin's BC as I was pretty sure he was their son, the other children had multiple entries so couldn't be certain. The name Pagett is a mystery, in 1861 Joanna was shown as Harley and when she emigrated to USA.

Martyn Freeth
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Noted, Rita. I would be interested in what Benjamin's birth cert reveals in due course.

By the way, Joseph's son George (aged 6 at 1851 Census) was bap 19.5.1850 at Kingswinford, s of Joseph and Mary Ann, per IGI (my copy regs to not stretch that far), same day and place as Benjamin, mother Sarah. George's bap may have been overlooked because of his mother's death. You can look for that in FreeBMD, Stourbridge the likely District.

Something else I forgot: the SFHS Marriage Index - still in its early stages - has no Harley marriage in Shifnal, any period. It was, by the way, a busy parish as containing also the industrial areas of Oakengates, St George's and Priorslee.

RitaB
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Thanks Martyn, I think I'll put in on hold until I receive the BC. Will let you know who the parents are, hopefully the Father will be Joseph. I'll ask the family again if they know anything about the Pagett connection.

RitaB
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Martyn, As you suggested, I have found a death for Mary Harley Q1 1845 in Stourbridge and a birth for George Q1 1845 again Stourbridge. I have just ordered his BC. My cousin in USA is very appreciative of our searches and is trying to get more substantive information.

RitaB
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Martyn, I hope you don't mind me running this by you. In 1841 Census I found a 15 yr old Sarah Pagett living with her parents Benjamin & Rebecca nee Taylor  in Wrockwardine Wood, Shropshire, there was also a baby girl 1 month old called Rebecca. Too many coincidence not to be the same Sarah, do you know this area. Looking at Google maps Kingwinsford is only 23 miles away. I also found a BC for Rebecca Paget 1841 Wellington Shropshire. What do you think?

Martyn Freeth
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Sorry Rita but I do not see the last info as relevant.

To summarise, Joseph Harley married firstly (or had issue by) a Mary Ann. She seems to have died early in 1845, probably at or following the birth of their son George.

Joseph then later married a Sarah, and had Benjamin early in 1850.

Sarah already had two daughters, bap and registered as Pagett. They were with Joseph, as Pagett, in 1851. The baps show their father as Joseph Pagett. If as you say Joanna was later known as Harley, that surname was "adoptive".

Sarah was possibly a Tence or Tench at her marriage with JP, not Pagett.

Benjamin's birth cert ought to resolve the above. And then her marriage to Joseph Harley has to be found, eg via FreeBMD. Then with that cert you should find JH's father, who might be living at 1851 Census. Trouble is that all this might not be sorted before the reunion.

 

RitaB
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 Thanks Martyn, I agree with your summary, I'll just wait for the BCs before I make any more presumptions

RitaB
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Good morning Martyn, Benjamin was born 22 Aug 1849 at Commonside, Kingswinford, Father Joseph Harley,  Miner, Mother Sarah  formerly Langford. The only record I can find is a Christening in IGI for Sarah Langford 29 Jun 1816 Father Job, Mother Elizabeth.

The name Langford has certainly flummoxed me. I have checked marriages at  free BMD. Worcestershire BMD, Findmypast,IGI and Family Search with no luck. Also looked under Longford

 

 

Martyn Freeth
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Thanks Rita. I too am flummoxed. Cannot see a marriage in FreeBMD of a Sarah Langford or Longford to either JH or, earlier, Joseph Paget/tt. Hard to think that they went to Gretna Green or similar. Perhaps just never married. Or perhaps Sarah was married to someone else before JP. But her age does not allow much leeway, ie born around 1822/3.

She gave "Shilton, Staffs" as birthplace at 1851 C. Cannot raise such a place. Shelton, where for long there was an important ironworks, was to 1834 a chapelry of Stoke on Trent. According to Vol 6 Part I of the National Index of PRs baps at S-O-T are covered by IGI to 1838. Langford has been a requent Salop surname, by the way.

Might I suggest asking for further views of a West Mids or Black Country website? If, of course, they have an open forum. There is, I believe an open Birmingham Forum. Try Links to neighbouring societies via top icons.

RitaB
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Thanks Martyn,

If I find anything do you want to know?

Regards

Rita

Martyn Freeth
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Yes, please; and this thread has had a fair number of views to date, so others may be interested.

Meanwhile: did JH senior and "wife" Sarah also migrate to USA? JH not readily seen, as born in ENG around 1821 in US 1880 or GB 1881. (Mr Mark Dodd has access to other US Censuses). If not, their deaths are to be sought; or remarriage for Sarah. After 1867 ages are given by GRO via FreeBMD.

Another line, if you are on Ancestry, is to look at other Harleys in Kingswinford, Pensnett (if separately listed), Brierley Hill, and Sedgeley - just in case JH senior moved there early with his parents, who might be alive in 1851. And indeed his birth in Shifnal (if correct) might have been accidental, so to speak, with parents normally settled in Staffs.

In any case, look in here: summat might juss turn up.

RitaB
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Yes, most of the family wnet to USA in 1877 aboard the Minnesota, Sarah and Joseph were shown as Hartey the children were as Hartley. Rebecca Pagett/Harley had married a John Stevens in 1860 and they were on the same voyage. The Harleys were living at Lower St Clair, Allegheny, Pennsylvania, USA in 1870.

RitaB
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Sorry it was 1867 when they arrived, to be exact   31 October

RitaB
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Martyn,

I have been wading through the 1841 census for Kingswinford, not found anything concrete as yet.The BC for Joseph has just arrived. His mother was Mary Ann formerly Barker.I found a marriage at St Mary, Oldswinford Q4 1840 between her and Joseph Herdley, judging the handwriting in 1841 I think this maybe Joseph Harley, what do you think.?

The family have no knowledge of the Pagett connection therefore I have ordered Joanna's BC

Rita

Martyn Freeth
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Thank you Rita. I rather like this find, and hope that you will obtain the certificate.

But it may call for a change of direction, in that I suggest that this Joseph Herdley may be the Joseph Eardley bap 9.10.1821. (The IGI has this as a "real" entry from Donnington Wood, Salop; but this area was not then a separate parish, being part of Lilleshall. It adjoined however the parish of Shifnal).

Now, I already know of the family of Eardley in Shifnal, Oakengates and nearby and searched entries a couple of years ago for our, later, member Dave Eardley.

I wonder if similar "lateral" searching of alternative surnames via FreeBMD might find the marriage of Joseph with the widow Pagett.

RitaB
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Oh, what the heck, I've ordered it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

morrisonman
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Serendipity ?
=============

Hello, Martyn,

I searched FreeBMD, Sep 1837 to DEC 1855, on off chance, all counties,
for a marriage betw. a  "Joseph" awith (spouse surname) as "Pagett",

(although I don’t understand WHY, I was just following Martyn’s lead about the widow name...)

Browsing down the list, I found a HADLEY.

Also, Aston bought my eye as I seemed to associate ASTON with "BIRMINGHAM" (sometime called Kingswinford, I seem to believe...)

Here’s the results: (hope I am not infringing anybody’s copyright (-:)

Surname      First name(s)            District      Vol      Page
Marriages Mar 1848   (>99%)
Blunn     George Henry          Aston     16    244      Scan available - click to view
Hadley     Joseph           Aston     16    244      Scan available - click to view
Hollis     Eliza           Aston     16    244      Scan available - click to view
JACKSON     Lucy           Aston     16    244      Scan available - click to view
JONES     Sarah Matilda           Aston     16    244      Scan available - click to view
Pagett     Levi           Aston     16    244      Scan available - click to view
RICHARDS     Mary           Aston     16    244      Scan available - click to view
Sabbiner     Thomas           Aston     16    244      Scan available - click to view

looking back up the history trace here, I now see that his wife was SARAH
(I had not retained this info...)

and this page does contain a "Sarah Jones"

So any chance this could be who Rita-B is looking for ?

Martyn Freeth
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Thanks for the last post. Not sure that this quite helps. We want a Sarah Pagett.

For Rita: unfortunately I have not saved my Eardlkey work in a Word doc, so must sometime trawl through old scruffily-written notebooks . However, I recall that the key to demolishing Dave's brick wall was by showing that Eardley and Earley or variants were one family. My current thinking is thus to link, on the basis of illiteracy and a phonetic "take", Eardley / Earley / Herdley / Harley.

All this needs searching for disproof, such as an alternative marriage for that Joseph Eardley bap 1821 or the latter's appearance in those names in 1851 Census. Cannoit help on latter from home.