Hi, I am looking for details of an ancester called Elizabeth RICHARDS born in Stanton Lacy in 1850. I have been tracing my family tree and she appears on the 1861 censes as a daughter to my GGGrandfather whose surname was PAYNE and lived in Aymstrey. Then in a later censes she appears to have 3 children, Thomas born 1869, Harriett 1870 and John 1875. I would appreciate any help anyone could offer as she is a mystery as I cannot find out why she was with the family, Was she adopted???????????? Not sure how that went about in those days. Besides the 1861 censes I can find no further records of her. Andrea
Oh Phil you are a treasure. Let me fill you in on what I know. Frances (Fanny) PAYNE nee TUNKS and James PAYNE were married in 1847 that is why I couldn't understand why if she was in the census as their daughter had the surname of RICHARDS as she was born in 1850. They had their first child William in 1853 who is at his grandparents in one census then at his uncles in the next, so difficult to track down. There was also a little girl called Ellen, who from memory was born in 1856 but sadly died when she was 4. Then the rest of the brood, including my great grandmother Rosina Jane. They did live at Aymstrey but can't work out the connection with the PAYNE family but I'm pretty sure the Elizabeth you have is also my Elizabeth. I've tried to find a marriage record for maybe a sister of both James and Frances to see if any of them married a RICHARDS but have been unsuccessful as yet, as I can't find Frances with her family on the 1841 censes.
Thank you so much for your help it is much appreciated I'd love to know what happened to her.
I will check out the info about the possibility of Fanny being her mother.
Kind regards, Andrea
Hi Andrea,Are you sure you've got the right marriage record? If they were married in 1847 then I would expect to find them as a couple in the 1851 Census. The closest I could get for James Is the 1851 record below. It's interesting in that it has James' occupation as Thatcher, the same as in 1861. Take care as tere seem to be several James Payne born 1820-1830 in that area (sometimes spelt Payn). RegardsPhil:1851 Census
| PAYNE, Thomas | Head | Married | M | 66 | 1785 | Mason Master Employing 1 Man | Downton, Herefordshire | ||
| PAYNE, Ann | Wife | Married | F | 64 | 1787 | Monkland, Herefordshire | |||
| PAYNE, Thomas | Son | Unmarried | M | 34 | 1817 | Infirm | Kingsland, Herefordshire | ||
| PAYNE, Timothy | Son | Unmarried | M | 25 | 1826 | Mason (Journeyman) | Kingsland, Herefordshire | ||
| PAYNE, James | Son | Unmarried | M | 22 | 1829 | Thatcher | Kingsland, Herefordshire | ||
| PAYNE, William | Son | Unmarried | M | 14 | 1837 | Kingsland, Herefordshire | |||
| BRUNT, Susan | Lodger | Married | F | 31 | 1820 | Dressmaker | Aymestrey, Herefordshire |
Piece: 1981
Folio: 523
Page: 21
Registration District: Leominster
Civil Parish: Aymestrey
Municipal Borough:
Address: Yatton Hill, Aymestrey
County:
Herefordshire. The 1841 Census for this James Payne is:
| PAYNE, Thomas | M | 55 | 1786 | Herefordshire | VIEW | ||
| PAYNE, Ann | F | 45 | 1796 | Herefordshire | VIEW | ||
| PAYNE, Thomas | M | 20 | 1821 | Herefordshire | VIEW | ||
| PAYNE, Susannah | F | 20 | 1821 | Herefordshire | VIEW | ||
| PAYNE, Mary | F | 15 | 1826 | Herefordshire | VIEW | ||
| PAYNE, Timothy | M | 16 | 1825 | Herefordshire | VIEW | ||
| PAYNE, James | M | 13 | 1828 | Herefordshire | VIEW | ||
| PAYNE, Eleanor | F | 9 | 1832 | Herefordshire | VIEW | ||
| PAYNE, William | M | 3 | 1838 | Herefordshire | VIEW |
Piece: 428
Book/Folio: 7/4
Page: 2
Registration District: Leominster Union
Civil Parish: Aymestry
Municipal Borough:
Address: Yatton Hill, Aymestry, Yatton
County: Herefordshire
Hi Phil, Yes I think you are correct. From memory I copied Frances name from someone else's trees which I hate doing unless I've checked it out and as it was on quite a few other trees didn't bother and put it in my tree - FATAL. There is a marriage record for James and Frances TUNKS in 1847 so that is where the confusion is. James the Thatcher is my GGGrandad and from family chats was always a thatcher. I wonder if Frances was a RICHARDS? Back to the drawing board. Thank you for your help:) Andrea
Hi Phil, If you read this I have cracked it. Frances PAYNE also known as Fanny was Fanny RICHARDS before she married James PAYNE in 1852, so my little Elizabeth was Fanny's daughter out of wedlock. I was so pleased to find that Elizabeth wasn't an orphan who was taken in by someone out of kindness but she lived with her mum and stepfather who loved her. Thank you so much for your initial help as without that I don't think I would of found out. Best wishes Andrea.
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Hi Andrea, The 1861 Census is interesting, in that it has James Payne, 37 years, occupation Thatcher, Frances Payne, wife, 38 years, Thatcher's wife, Elizabeth Richards, daughter, 11 years, Mary Anne Payne, 3 years, Thatcher's daughter, James Payne, 3 months, Thatcher's son. Eight years is quite a gap between children in 1850's, so was Frances married previously with daughter Elizabeth from that marriage, or was Elizabeth married out of wedlock? Do you have marriage certificate for James? Or birth certificates for any of the children, which would show Frances maiden name, and possibly former married name (Richards?) if she had been widowed? Also do you have any info on James born 1824 in earlier or later Census years? Finally there is a birth record for a Elizabeth Fanny Richards, Dec1 1849 Ludlow Vol. 18 Page 77, and Fanny may be alternative way of spelling Frances (ie named after her mother?) Just found the following in 1851 Census - Fanny Richards aged 24 years unmarried born Aymestry, living with her widowed father Thomas Richards and younger brother Thomas Richards, and with a young girl named Elizabeth Richards aged 18 months (granddaughter of Thomas) - they were living in Aymestry. Regards, Phil