Hello to anyone who reads this...:)
I'm currently researching a Quaker family name of Kelsall,parents John Kelsall and Susannah Davies. I have birth dates, parents etc for the parents and all 10 of the children of John and Susannah, John kept a diary I understand and I have some information from that. However, what I'm trying to find out is what happened to those of his children that lived. I know that he[John ] lived for some time near to Welshpool, then spent his last 2-3 years in Chester where died.I have come across the following extract on the Ancestry website where both a John and Amos Kelsall are referenced, and I know for sure that two of his sons were named John and Amos,what I'd like to know is where they married, when and who.
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Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
Kind regards, Linda
Sorry Chris,
Very remiss of me not mentioning the time frame. John and Amos were born in 1712 & 1715 respectively in Dolobran,Welshpool....see the information I have below.
John Kelsall 1683
John's Birth is entered in the Lancaster Meeting, Society of Friends, Birth and Death Register shows-
John Kelsall 1683 - 7th Month - 18th Day at Hart Street, London, Parents John and Elizabeth Kelsall.
Was orphaned, along with his brother Joseph, in 1685. His grandmother, Jennet Cragg, nee Townson rode all the way from Wyredale, Lancashire to London, on her own, to return the boys to Lancashire
John was sent to schools at Abbeystead and Lancaster and to the Quaker Schools at Yealand and Penketh near Warrington.
John became a schoolmaster at Dolobran in Wales before moving to work in Coalbrookdale in Shropshire. Then, as a clerk to ironmaster Abraham Darby, he moved to Dolgellau in Merionethshire.
He married Susanna Davies and they had a family of four girls and six boys. John was said to have had some injury or deformity to his foot which left him slightly lame for most of his life .
At Colebrookdale, he was trained and appointed to build and manage a charcoal blast-furnace.
He left Dolgellau forever in 1736 when the furnace became uneconomic. With his wife Susannah and the remaining four of his ten children, he moved to Chester where he died in poverty in 1743.
John Kelsall kept a diary from 1700 until the day before he died. The diaries are now in Friends House Library, London.
Extracts from his diary show-
"My father had only two sons by his second wife, John and Joseph, I being the Elder was born in Hart Street near Covent Garden London the 18th of 7mo. 1683; and my Brother was born at the same place the 9th of 7mo. 1684."
"In the Year 1684 on the 4th of 8mo.* my father departed this Life having been sick for sometime of a fever. About a year after this on the 28th of 9mo. my dear mother also died being aged 25 years. And thus were my Brother & I being very young left both fatherless & motherless amongst strangers, very few or none of our kindred living in the City, but Friends were careful over us. Soon after or about my mother's Decease I got a fall and hurting my left foot. It increased to a prodigious sore, and having the King's Evil in my Eyes the same fell down into my foot so that it became so ill that some Surgeons advised to have it cut off, but with much care & charges for some years it was cured."
"In the year 1687 my sd Grandmother Jennet Thompson (by her second marriage) came up to London and in the 3mo. that year took my Brother and me along with her home to a place called Routon-brook in Quarmore near Lancaster, and left the management of our outward Estate to our friend Jno. Vaughton there being a Lease of the house my father and mother lived in unexpired and Let at first for 30£ p annum to our use having abt 11 years to come. Yet afterwards the Trade and Custom failing we rec'd not above 15£ p annum for ye Term of 11 years one year with another.
We being thus settled with my Grandmother she took great care of us and as we were capable sent us to school, but it was about a year after I came to the Country 'ere I was able to walk without two staffs by reason of my foot."
John and Susanna had the following children -
John 1712. from John Kelsalls diary = "Upon the 21st of the 2nd mo. 1712 (being the day called Easter Munday) our eldest child was born whom we called John. He was born about half past one AM." 1725/26 "My son John went an apprentice with Rd. Ainge, Brass-Founder in Deal-End, Brimingham for 7 years to commence 29d 7mo. 1725, I to give 8£ with him to find him clothes and etc. "
Amos 1713. From John Kelsall's diary-Upon the 7th day of ye 12th mo. 1713 about half an hour past 10PM (being the day called Shrove-Sunday) our second son Amos was born at the New Meeting-House near Dolobran.
John Kelsall diary extract. *1725/26 "This Summer I settled both my sons John & Amos apprentices, the latter with Jno. Seddon, Clockmaker in Frodsham for 8 years to commence from 29d 7mo. 1725 he to have 40s wages the last year of his Time, I to give him 15£ with him to find him clothes and etc."
Be njamin 1716.According to John Kelsall's diary - "1716 Our Son Benjamin born 19d 3mo."
Sa muel 1718. According to John Kelsall's diary - " 1718 Our Son Saml. born, 4:3mo. Dyed the 20th.2mo."
Thomas 1719. According to John Kelsall's diary -"1719 Our Son Thomas born 19d 2mo at Dolgyn".
Elizabeth 1721According to John Kelsall's diary --"1721 9.5 Our Daughter Elizabeth born at the Forge."
Mary 1724.According to John Kelsall's diary -"On 26th of the 3mo. 1724 about 10 ho P.M. being 3rd Day of the week our daughter Mary was born at Dolobran Forge."
Timothy 1726.According to John Kelsall's diary -"1726 24.9 Son Timothy born at Dolobran Forge."
Susannah 1730.According to John Kelsall's diary -"1730 --5.10 Our Daughter Susannah born at Dolgyn."
Sarah 1733.According to John Kelsall's diary- "1733 - 3.1 Our Daughter Sarah born at Dolgyn."
Linda, I have a number of printed works relating to or containing Quaker families (including the complete issue on all lines of the Lloyd family of Dolobran (gentry, ironmasters and founders of Lloyds Bank). Please look in again in case I can find something. Will take time. The surname is familiar. I doubt any perrmanent connection with Shropshire.
My experience is that Quaker ceremonies appear in IGI largely as private submissions, so that one is dependent on someone else's previous interest.
Another feeling is that Quakers often used PCC for proving Wills. Certainly true of Freeth and associated Quaker families. (We have some links to the Darbys). So worth checking in Nat Archives. Also check online for Welsh Wills - www.llgc.org.uk . Images viewable online for free.
Worth also checking National Archives for Quaker records the probelm being that you may not knoew the area you are looking for. As Martin says there ay be no permanent connection with Shropshire. That diary is a wonderful find though.
You may have luck with Wills, Quakers tended to be on the porosperous side. Failure in business was a disciplinary matter.
Thanks so much, Martyn and Chris, as always a great help.
I'll check in again Martyn as you suggest in case you manage to find anything.
Many thanks, Linda
It is interesting that you should mention that he lived in Chester for some time, for their is a small village near Chester called Kelsall, of which I am most familiar with. They may very well have taken their name from this settlement. On GMaps:
There are a few entries in com. trees:
including a couple in Cheshire. It could be worth looking for links in Cheshire Archives.
Also some early wills in the PCC:
No joy, Linda, with references to your Kelsall family in my Quaker printed sources. Only one (in the Atkinson and related families): Joseph Fothergill, of Warrington married 25.4.1735 [ Where ? ] Hannah (died 1768), d of Henry and Sarah Kelsall, of Warrington.
I agree with David that (at least one) family took its name from the place. There is a pedigree in Ormerod's Cheshire - the old and definitive county history - vol 3 page 365. This is the second edition by Helsby. Copies will be at appropriate record offices such as Preston and Chester. Shr Archives has the first edition, for which pagination will differ.
John K was probably employed by Charles Lloyd, of Dolobran (Meifod parish, Monts) either Charles # 2 or # 3. You might find much via a Google search "lloyd of dolobran". There was some Quaker meeting place there, but query whether "official". David knows of and descends from the Bennetts of Trefeglwys, Monts. One of them was a Quaker who lived at Dolobran
If you haven't seen it already "The Quaker Lloyds in the Industrial Revolution" will be of interest.
Hello Linda
The FHS of Cheshire have a copy of Ormerod's History of Cheshire available on CD-Rom but you will need to check which edition has been used.
Mike
Thanks, everyone, the Kelsall family I'm looking at do indeed originate from Kelsall, nr Tarporley,I'll follow up some of those leads. Watch this space!..:)
Linda
Hi Linda
I am a direct descendant of JK's brother, Joseph. For many years I together with my parents have been researching the Kelsall family. My father has transcribed all the Diaries, Letters, Poems and Journals and my mother has written a book (yet to be published) called The Chester Years. Please find following an extract from her writings. Hope you find it of interest.
Pete
PEOPLE
John Kelsall was interred on 1 August 1743 at Newton-by-Frodsham Meeting House burial ground as recorded in the copy of the Friends burials register held at the Cheshire Record Office.
Susannah Kelsall received support for herself and two children in 1744 and 1746 from Wales Yearly Meeting. Coalbrookdale belonged to Wales Yearly Meeting. In 1746 it was held at Leominster and was attended by Abraham Darby II with Abiah his new second wife. Susannah died in Liverpool in 1767 aged 78 and was buried there having outlived John by 24 years.
Susannah probably went to Liverpool to live with her eldest son John. His first wife had died (recorded in the Chester Years) in Wolverhampton in 1741, and there is reference in the XXXXX Quaker meeting, of a John Kelsall giving notice of his intention to marry in 1747. Later Susannah Kelsall in 1753, and Sarah Kelsall in 1760, are mentioned as having "married out" and they were subsequently disowned by the Society.
Mary Kelsall of Boughton (daughter Molly/Mary?). In 1747 Friends in Chester reported that "Mary Kelsall a single woman being with child and she having been looked upon as one of our society though not much known amongst us, the Friends of Chester are desired to prepare a paper of denyall against her to be signed at our next Meeting". On 8th of 1mo. 1748 the fourth item of business at the Women's Meeting records "this day was read a paper of denial against Mary Kelsall of Boughton which by her disorderly life and conversation hath brought herself into such unhappy circumances as we earnestly desire may bring her to a right sense of the grievousness of her sin so has to obtain Pardon from Heaven and also that her outgoings may be a warning to our youth to avoid all loose and unprofitable company which we are very sensible is very apt to taint their tender minds".
Son Timothy's Will dated April 1783 names his brother Benjamin and his three children, and his sisters Mary and Elizabeth as beneficiaries. Mrs Martoe Merrick is also a beneficiary as are her children Roger Merrick and Charlotte Merrick. Timothy died on 4.3.1783 aged 58 and was interred at Newton. His occupation is given as Furrier and his address as Eddisbury. He left £300.
The descendants of John Kelsall are not known to the writer.
Brother Joseph lived on in Wyresdale where he died aged 74 in 1758 leaving 7 children. A story survives with his descendants that during the 1745 rebellion Joseph hid with his horses and cattle (so that they would not be taken) in "a secret place" leaving his wife Margaret to feed and tend the Scottish soldiers who had decided to call at their farm on their way south. They required food and took with them a servant and a cart. The family did not expect to see the servant again but he returned as the army retreated. There are hundreds of living descendants of Joseph; most of them have spread beyond north Lancashire but the Kelsall name lives on in Wyresdale. Some still farm there and a few are members of the Society of Friends.
Hello Linda,
Whilst out walking a few weeks ago, we came across a small Quaker graveyard at Abbeystead,Over Wyresdale. It had several Kelsall graves, and others. A friend was a Wyresdale 'Kelsall' before she married and the name is used as a christian name ,as well as a surname. The website www.lan-opc.org.uk is very good for lancashire parish records, again brought into being by volunteers so not all transcribed by any means. Hope this is some help to all Lancashire searches too.
Best wishes Jo
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You don't say the time period you're talking about.
John And Amos were witnesses to someones marriage. We don't of course know whether they're the people you're looking for.
When might they have been married? That is when did they become of marriagebale age?
If that is the only record Ancestry have (it doesn't give a place) I would start by finding at which Meeting, that is the place where the marriage took place. You would need to fins the original records and whether you had any luck would depend how well they were indexed, or indeed whether the particular records exist.
They may not of course have settled in Shropshire or even moved on. Presumably you have done other searches on Ancestry.