Hello David,
I went to the Records Office today and looked at the microfiche for Whitchurch for 1795, 1796 and 1797. The register is very neat and well kept. The only Tudman I could find during the three year period is the following baptism:
21.2.1797 Edward, son of Robert & Mary Tudman.
Are you sure Robert was baptised in 1796? It seems unusual to give a year of birth on a marriage record of that period.
Best wishes, Chris
My only source was the marriage record -- it seems that they must have been baptised elsewhere, in a source not available on line.There is a Robert Tudman christened in 1747 in Wrenbury, who probably married Mary there in 1776. There are two more baptised in Wybunbury in 1742 and 1761. I can't find one around 1796.
Thanks so much for spending the time to look at the microfiche.
The marriage record is below:
Hi David
The FamilySearch record you have found is not of the marriage itself - notice the event is "intended marriage" and that it is part of the Cheshire, Marriage Bonds and Allegations record set. And although both parties' ages are given as 21, that is because on these documents ages were often given as "21 and upwards" so Robert could very easily have been older than that and your search for his baptism should stretch back further than 1796.
The text of this particular document begins:
Seventh day of April in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Eight Hundred and Seventeen.
On which day appeared personally Robert Tudman of Black Park, Parish Whitchurch, Farmer
and being sworn on the Holy Evengelists, alledged and made Oath as follows. That he is of the Age of twenty one Years and upwards, and a Batchelor and intends to marry
Hannah Hannah Robinson of the Parish of Wrenbury, in County of Chester, aged twenty one Years and upwards, and a Spinster.
The document goes on to confirm that the marriage was to take place at the parish church of Wrenbury and that a licence was issued.
The marriage itself took place on 28 April 1817 and confirms that Robert was of Whitchurch parish while Hannah was of Wrenbury. No ages or occupations were given, as the pre-printed registers of the time did not require this information. Both parties signed the register. Witnesses signed themselves as Jane Vernon, John Robinson and Richd Redd??? (the Bishops Transcript gives the latter surname as Reddrop). The ceremony was performed by the Perpetual Curate, Gilbert Vawdrey.
The above Robert, given that he was 21 or older in 1817, could very easily be the Robert Tudman who was baptised at Whitchurch on 17 Nov 1779, son of Robert and Mary:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMFM-97F
The Access to Archives (A2A) site includes details of a document which might relate to your Tudmans (and incidentally mentions a place where I believe my own maternal ancestors originated, a place then known as Acheley) and suggests the possibility that Robert was indeed the son of Robert:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=166-4842&cid=2-3#2-3
I have not found a burial for Robert senior, but a 70-year-old Mary Tudman was buried at Whitchurch on 17 Nov 1823. She would have been born around 1753 and was possibly the Mary Cliff who married Robert Tudman at Wrenbury 18 Feb 1776:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNXW-7YV
Interestingly, a search of the 19th century newspaper collection shows this death notice from the Cheshire Observer of 14 Mar 1863:
On the 3rd inst at Broughall Cottage, near Whitchurch, Salop, aged 79, Hannah, relict of the late Robert Tudman, of Yockings Gate, near Whitchurch. (A Mr Tudman, farmer, of Yockings Gate, was mentioned in an article in The Salopian Journal of 5 Jan 1831; search for Tudman at http://www.lastchancetoread.com).
Hannah's age at death indicates a birth around 1784. She could therefore have been the Hannah Robinson baptised at Wrenbury on 4 Aug 1783:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N1DZ-PBF
Her husband, the late Robert Tudman, was perhaps the Robert Tudman, farmer of Whitchurch, whose will was proved at the Prerogative Court of Canterbury on 5 Nov 1841 (PROB 11/1954), a copy of which can be downloaded from The National Archives 'Documents Online' site. Very likely he was the Robert Tudman buried at Whitchurch on 17 Jun 1841:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J89B-2JW
It would be interesting to know the age of this Robert Tudman. 61 or thereabouts? Unfortunately I live too far away from Shrewsbury to pop into the Archives and have a look at the microfiche copy of the burial register.
It seems possible from the above that the Wrenbury marriage is of the Robert and Hannah who died in Shropshire rather than of the Robert and Hannah who died in New York.
Steve
I've now had a look at the Tudman burials at Lowell, courtesy of Find A Grave; also the 1850 US census for Oneida County, NY. The latter shows a household headed by John Tudman, 74, farmer, born England. Presumably Find A Grave's John Tudman, 1778 Whitchurch - 1851 Westmoreland, Oneida, NY.
The James Tudman buried in 1854 is shown as father of the above John Tudman by Find A Grave.
With John were the following yournger Tudmans: Robert (30, farmer), John (28, farmer), Henry (22, no occupation), Edward (18, boatman) plus Mary (26), Elizabeth (24) and Emma (21) - all born in England. Relationships are not shown but presumably John senior was the father and this seems to be backed up by the following baptisms (all of which name the mother as Elizabeth):
James Tudman, 15 Dec 1817 @ Whitchurch - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JS35-5FF
(Shown as son of John and Elizabeth, died 1842 age 24, at Find A Grave.)
Robert Tudman, 1 Feb 1820 @ Whitchurch - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JS35-PBZ
John Tudman, 17 Oct 1821 @ Whitchurch - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J7LN-83J
(Shown as 1821-1883 at Find A Grave.)
Mary Ann Tudman, 29 Oct 1823 @ Whitchurch - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNFD-DX2
Elizabeth Tudman, 18 Jan 1826 @ Middlewich (Ches) - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F3TT-3Z4
Henry Tudman - 25 Jan 1829 @ Midlewich - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F3TT-ZLK
(Shown as 1827-1893 at Find A Grave - it seems he had a late baptism.)
Emma Tudman - 10 Jun 1829 @ Middlewich - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F3TT-8JL
John's wife Elizabeth, mother of the above children, died in 1843 according to Find A Grave.
Your John is evidently not a son of this family, being born in 1825, but perhaps he was a nephew of John senior of Whitchurch and went out to join his relatives - at the age of 22 according to the obituary shown with his gravestone at Find A Grave - leaving his parents Robert and Hannah behind in Shropshire (see my last post, to which I should add that Yockings Gate is at Black Park - see this map). John Tudman senior is shown on the 1840 US census at Westmoreland, Oneida as head of a household consisting of 4 males and 3 females; if John junior went out at age 22 he presumably went out around 1847, although in my experience ages / years of immigration given by people later in life are often way off the mark.
Hope this helps.
Steve
PS - Looking over all this again, it would appear that Robert Tudman, father of John and Robert and granfather of your John, also went out to New York some time after the death of his wife Mary and his burial there (in 1854) explains why there is no burial for him at Whitchurch! In addition, I have just looked up the 1851 census and found the following household at Broughall township (which was in the parish of Whitchurch - see GENUKI), Shropshire:
Head: Hannah Tudman, widow, 67, annuitant, born Cheshire, Wrenbury.
Dau: Alice Tudman, unmarried, 28, born Salop, Whitchurch.
Son: Robert Tudman, unmarried, 30 [birthplace not entered but presumably the same as Alice's].
This all seems to tie in quite neatly. With older brother Robert likely to inherit the lion's share (a copy of Robert senior's will would be interesting to see, and can as I mentioned be downloaded -for a small fee - from Documents Online at TNA), perhaps John thought he might have better prospects in the land of opportunity across the Atlantic.
The furthest I can go with absolute certainty is to John Tudman (b. Mar. 28, 1825 d. Jul. 21, 1901). His gravestone is visible at this location. FamilySearch shows a christening record for John Tudman in Whitchurch on this same date son of Robert & Hannah: link. I don't have any proof that this Robert & Hannah died in New York. There is a marker for Robert Tudman (b. unknown d. Aug., 1854) in New York, but since no birth date is given I cannot be certain who exactly this was -- the father, or a son who died young. There is no marker in New York for Hannah.
Given the birth date of John Tudman in 1825 to "Robert & Hannah", it seemed reasonable to connect him with the 1817 Wrenbury marriage. That in turn lead me to the probably erroneous conclusion that this Robert was born in 1796.
I ordered the will you found. Although I took a class in Latin Paeleography I do find it hard to make out. In it Robert leaves everything to "my brother Edward." He names his children as "Robert, John and Ann," including a statement about when they reach the age of 21. The PDF copy can be downloaded from Google Docs. These three all have christening records in the 1820s in Whitchurch. The John mentioned here is almost certainly my ancestor. The Robert could possibly be the one who died in New York in 1854. All this suggests that this Robert Tudman is indeed my 5th great grandfather. Does that all add up?
Thank you so very much for all of your help.
Edit: I posted the above at the same time as your second posting. Let me read through it. :)
Thanks again for all your help.
Hi David
I've spent a while poring over wills such as Robert's so I am able to make most of it out. In essence it appears that he left everything in Trust to his brother Edward, who as executor would see to the payment of legacies of £300 each to Robert's three children at age 21 (or at marriage, if earlier, in the case of his daughter Ann). The residue was to go to Robert's wife Hannah and upon her desease it was to be split equally between the three children.
To sum up the genealogy from my previous posts and a bit more research, it seems likely that we have:
Your 5th great grandfather Robert Tudman married Mary Cliff at Wrenbury, Cheshire 18 Feb 1776. He was a yeoman, of the parish of Whitchurch, aged 25 and upwards, when he applied for his licence (on 17 Feb 1776!) to marry "Mary Cliffe of Broomhall in the Parish of Wrenbury", a spinster aged 21 years and upwards. On the same day a marriage bond was entered into by "Robert Tudman of the Parish of Whitchurch in the County of Salop, Yeoman, & Thomas Cliffe of Broomhall in the Parish of Wrenbury and County of Chester Yeoman". The parish register entry (or at least the Bishop's Transcript of it) only shows the marriage of "Robt Tudman & Mary Cliff, by Licence, Feby 18th".
Robert and Mary had several children, all baptised at Whitchurch on the dates shown below (with burial dates for those dying in infancy also given; FamilySearch for some reason gives them as dates of death):
Elizabeth (15 Apr 1777)
John (13 Oct 1778)
Robert (17 Nov 1779)
Thomas (4 May 1785; buried 14 Jul 1785)
James (20 Jan 1787; buried 19 Mar 1794)
George (18 Mar 1788; buried 3 Apr 1788)
Hannah (21 Aug 1792; born 13 Aug 1792; buried 24 Nov 1792)
Edward (21 Feb 1797)
Robert's wife Mary dies, and is buried at Whitchurch on 17 Nov 1823, age 70. The widowed Robert goes to New York some time after this (before or after his son John?), dies there, and is buried at Lowell in 1854 (if the information given at Find A Grave is correct - certainly it would explain the apparent lack of a burial or will for Robert in England).
Robert and Mary's son John marries Elizabeth Rodenhurst at Ellesmere on 19 Jun 1816 (see FamilySearch). Interestingly for me, there's a possibility that this Elizabeth Rodenhurst may have been the granddaughter of one of my Atcherley cousins, Elizabeth Atcherley, who married William Dod. Their daughter Elizabeth Dod married James Rodenhurst (a farmer who lived at The Spout in Ellesmere parish) and their third child and first daughter Elizabeth was born at Ellesmere on 26 Nov 1793. There's another line of research for me! John and Elizabeth have children at Whitchurch in Shropshire and then at Middlewich in Cheshire, them emigrate to New York before the 1840 US census.
Robert and Mary's son Edward stays in Shropshire and resides at Ash Grove, Whitchurch, where he earns his living as a wine merchant and also wins many prizes for his poultry.
Robert and Mary's son John, your 4th great grandfather, is the one we are most interested in though, he settles at Yockings Gate in the township of Black Park, Whitchurch parish, and marries Hannah Robinson at Wrenbury in 1817 (Hannah was baptised there on 4 Aug 1783).
Robert and Hannah have three children, all baptised at Whitchurch, namely John (1820), Ann (1822) and Robert, your 3rd great grandfather (1825).
Robert Tudman makes his will on 25 Apr 1839, leaving legacies to the above-named children and the residue of his estate to his wife Hannah; the executor and trustee is his brother Edward. The family appear on the 1841 census, oddly enough at the township of Losford (Hodnet parish). As was often the way with the 1841 census, ages were rounded down to the nearest 5 years. Robert, 60, is a farmer. With him is Hannah, 50; Robert, 20; Ann, 15; and John, also 15; plus two agricultural labourers and two female servants. Robert dies, and is buried at Whitchurch on 17 Jun 1841, his will being proved on 5 Nov that year.
Robert and Hannah's son John emigrates to America, apparently at the age of 22, possibly spurred on by news from his uncle John of the opportunities available there. The rest, as they say, is family history - your family history to be precise. Meantime, back in Shropshire, Robert's widow Hannah continues to live with the couple's other two children at Broughall township, Whitchurch, and she dies there on 3 Mar 1863.
Steve
Thanks so very much for all your help. My parents will be delighted with all this. John must have done well with his £300 in 1840s upstate New York!
Now to see if I can get back any farther... 
-David
Resurrecting this thread after a long time... :)
I have been able to document my family history from Robert Tudman (1747-1809) to his son Robert (1779-1841), but I am not having a lot of luck going further back. Since I last posted in this thread I turned up the burial and the will for my 5th GG Robert, proved in 1809, but have had no success in trying to go back in time any further.
FindMypast documents Robert's birth at Wrenbury in 1747, son of "John and Sarah", as well as showing that John and Sarah must have moved to Whitchurch by 1753, when they started having children there. Unfortunately, I cannot turn up any marriage for John & Sarah, nor any burial for a Sarah Tudman, nor any will for this John Tudman. There is a burial for a John Tudman at Whitchurch in 1768, however. There is also a baptism for a John Tudman at Wrenbury 05 Nov, 1713. The trouble is that a John Tudman of Wrenbury married Mary Walker at Cheshire Cathedral in 1742, leaving me a bit flummoxed.
Does anyone have some advice for me on how (or whether) I can clear up this mystery? Is there a location for 18th century Whitchurch wills? There are many Tudman wills in the 17th century in Cheshire, but nothing at all until the 1809 will mentioned above. That will was for £3500, I would guess that his father's will was therefore probably also substantial.
Thank you!
-David
Hello David
Whitchurch, Shropshire wills prior to 1858 together with those for the rest of the northern half of Shropshire are at Staffordshire County Council's Lichfield Record Office but they are not searchable online at the present time (March 2015) so it means visiting Lichfield in person or if that is not possible paying someone else on your behalf.
Mike
Hi Mike,
Thank you for the insight. Since I live about 3,000 miles from Lichfield, I'll have to use their record search facility. 
Regards,
David.
One more quick question. The Lichfield Diocesan Research Service wills records search form includes this statement:
£12.50 (£10.42 + £2.08 VAT) per 40 years (or part thereof) per surname. Searches of both the consistory and peculiar court calendars: £12.50 (£10.42 + £2.08 VAT) per 20 years (or part thereof) per surname.
I assume I should ask them to search both? I confess I am not entirely sure what the difference is between "consistory and peculiar court calendars"? All I really could say is my last documented ancestor lived between 1747 and 1809, his eldest sibling was born in 1759 and so his father passed perhaps somewhere between 1760 and 1800, and in either Wrenbury or Whitchurch.
Thanks!
-David
Hello David
Wrenbury or Wrenbury cum Frith and Wrenbury Heath are in Cheshire and you can search the Cheshire Wills online so that is obviously the first place to look.
Also, don't forget to check the Prerogative Court of Canterbury Wills, 1384-1858 (covering the whole of England & Wales) which are available on Ancestry but you will need a worldwide subscription as you live outside the UK unless you use a local library or archive.
Answering your question above, the first thing to say is that you don't need to pay the VAT - only people living in Europe have to pay that so it is important you tell them where you live and don't just give an email address. Next, on Ancestry have a look at Great Britain, Atlas and Index of Parish Registers and select England on the right then Shropshire from the drop down list. The resulting map page will show you that the main Peculiar in north Shropshire was at Prees so unless you think your relatives may have lived there you probably don't need the Will search to include Peculiars. Note that Cheshire does not have any Peculiars.
Before you rush into spending money it might be worth asking whether the Lichfield Wills are likely to be come available on the Internet in the foreseeable future. There are a few Lichfield Consistory Court Wills, 1650-1700 on Find my Past but these are too early for you.
Mike
Hi Mike,
I do have the ancestry world wide subscription, but it does not have any Tudman wills before 1809. I do see some Tudman wills at Cheshire, but these date from the 17th century.
I am at a loss other than to try the Lichfield search, as:
1) I am reasonably certain that my 5th GG is the person referenced in this FamilySearch entry. The findmypast entry that corresponds to this seems to have an image problem -- i can see the transcription but the associated image is of burials in 1809.
2) I can find no marriage of a John & Sarah Tudman, nor any burial for a Sarah Tudman at the correct place and time in any of the on line tools.
Thus, if I want to try and go back any further, I don't see any other options. Does this make sense?
I have always been puzzled by my surname; just what is a "Tudman" anyway? Several books link this to one of several place names in East Anglia, but I see no evidence of my ancestors being anywhere but Cheshire/Shropshire/Staffordshire. There were three Tudman families in area in the 17th-19th centuries, one at Whitchurch and Wrenbury (mine), one at Wybunbury and one at Walsall. An article in an 1833 newspaper talks about the death of Mr. John Tudman, 88, "last of a long line who had resided at Wood End [Walsall] for some centuries, supposed since the reign of Queen Mary." I thus wanted to see if there were some way to unify these three families to better understand the history of the name. In order to do that, I have to see what can be pieced together further back in time. This might be a fool's errand, but nothing ventured, nothing gained...
Thanks for your help,
David
Hi David. I'm a descendant of Daniel Sumner and Hannah Tudman of Whitchurch Shropshire who married February 14 1763. That's about as much as I know I'm afraid. Do you have these in your database? I live in Whitchurch so I would be happy to carry out any local research.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi David,
There is a baptism for a Robert Tudman at Whitchurch, Shropshire on 17th November 1779 on Family Search (Mormon site). I haven't found the marriage you mention but there are 3 children's baptisms giving Robert and Hannah Tudman as the parents. These are Robert on 8th September 1820, Ann on 9th September 1822 and John on 28th March 1825, all on the same site. I assume these are yours,as they would tie in with a marriage in 1817.
When and where did the family emigrate and was it Robert and Hannah or one or all of the children?
Hazel